ISAIAH 9:6-7 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
[7] Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. (ESV)
Full Preterism (FP) advocates teach that the Christian age, which we will currently in, has no end, it will last for infinity. This belief requires them to believe in “infinite procreation” and therefore there is an infinite number of people who will become Christians.
Since God is omnipotent can He create a rock that He cannot lift? If that question is answered in the affirmative then the nature of God is in contradiction with itself — and therefore God would no longer be God according to historical orthodox Christian theology.
Similarly we might ask, can God know all of a number that has no end? The dilemma in this question is apparent. No one can know all of something that has no end, because something that has no end, by definition, has no “all.”
In light of this, one might understand why the “infinite procreation” teachings of Full Preterists (FP) are dangerous. It is ultimately a denial of God’s omniscience. It denies God’s decree and foreknowledge of “all” the elect. It denies that “all” of the Body of Christ was crucified and resurrected with Christ because there is no “all” in infinity. It denies that the atonement of Christ covers “all” of the elect. It denies that Jesus’ death was once and for “all.”
I believe that the Bible teaches that God “knows those who are his.” If he knows them, he knows them all, entirely.
I’ve been reading Samuel Frost’s articles lately as he, as a Full Preterist, is trying to pursuade his fellow-FPs that “infinite procreation” is bad theology. He has been pointing out to his FP colleagues that FP needs to add a “consummation doctrine” or FP theology is not going to survive. He argues that FP begins with assuming a paradox and that is not a good way for a theological system to begin. LOL – I agree.
FP often reference Isaiah 9 when they are teaching “infinite procreation.” The phrase “without end” occurs in Isaiah 9:7 where we read that the government or rule of Messiah shall “increase” (marbeh) and “shall not end.” FP claim that this verse teaches that God’s kingdom shall increase forever on into infinity. Once his kingdom is established, it will be established “forever” (LXX – unto the age; Hebrew – olam). Doesn’t “forever” mean “infinity”? No. Infinity means “never ending divisibility” and “imperfection”. An infinite thing is technically imperfect because it is never established. God is not infinite, God is eternal, because that which is “eternal” is perfect and complete.
In Isaiah 9:7, “forever” refers to the quality of the kingdom. Once the “increase” (marbeh – used only 2x – LXX has “greatness”) is “established” it will not ever be unestablished. The Hebrew word marbeh is used only two times in the OT and means “greatness” or “abundance”. It is connected with other cognate words that definitely mean “abundance” and many translations follow that.
Contextually we know that Isaiah was living in a time when the “throne of David” was split in two, and the seat of Judah was to be taken away. Israel’s “increase” (her abundance) was “decreasing”. Yet, there would come one who would establish David’s throne “once and for all” and bring in the “abundant life” that gives “eternal” its spiritual aspect.
Preterists and FP alike understand, for example, that Is 65.17-ff is to be taken “spiritually” – that no one, literally, is going to live to be hundreds of years old at some point in the future. This means spiritual abundance. Yet, here, in Isaiah 9:7, “increase” is interpreted literally by FP to mean infinite procreation! The FP exegesis is thereby inconsistent.
It is the “kingdom”, the “throne of David” that is abundant, or given increase, and the increase it is given, once established, shall have no end. The picture is like a man who lives in a small house, but is promised a larger house – an increase, or more abundant room. When the time comes to establish the promise, his “increase” shall not ever be taken from him.
Furthermore, “increase” is a noun here in Isaiah, too. If there was, for example, a participle, “of the increasing”, we would have a different story, and the FP would then have a point. But, the prepositional phrase “to the increase” refers to “his rule”, his “power” (mishrah). He shall rule over all things (as opposed to just some things), and this rule over the increase of all things shall have no end. The “increase” is not volitive but static: it’s fixed. There is an “increase” that will be given to his government, and that “increase” shall not ever “decrease”. There is nothing here that speaks of infinitely produced things.
So what can we conclude from a proper exegesis? We can conclude that Isaiah 9:7 speaks of “no decreasing and no overthrowing” of the New Covenant. This is a great promise because is reinforces the doctrinal fact that the New Covenant blessings do not end when Jesus returns to deliver the earth and its heirs from the curse in that “last day.” There will be a “last day” to the curse, a last day for evil to oppress God’s children, a last day for unrighteousness to corrupt God’s creation, a last day for the Devil to accuse. On that last day Jesus will judge all things and completely remove the curse and all its consequences. But there will be no last day to the New Covenant blessings for the New Covenant is everlasting.
The number of inhabitants in the kingdom is not referenced in this Isaiah passage. But we know from many other passages of Scripture that there is a finite number of elect and God knows them all by name. God has foreknown all the elect, predestined them to be conformed to the image of His son, and will draw “all” of the elect to Christ. That means there is an “end” in the future to evangelism, an end in the future of the curse of sin upon God’s children, a day of consummation of Redemption, then we understand that that finite number of elect will go into eternity, living upon the “renewed” earth forever.
Tweet
…um, nice try; whatever the problems with preterism/this ain’t it. The universe may be infinite and God made it and knows it. NOt a problem.
QED
Doug, what do you see is the problem with full preterism? If the universe is infinite, then what do we do with “in the Beginning”?
It seems to me that “infinite” is a “time” word. If there was no such thing as time then there would be no such thing as infinite time. To believe in “infinity” one would have to believe in Process Theology which is popular among Arminians (especially in their doctrine of the Atonement). Apparently, “infinity” is not the same as “eternal” because eternal is outside of time. God is eternal. God’s eternality has not beginning and has no end. We who are saved will enter eternity with Him as our redemption is consummated.
Am I right?
There will be, “an end in the future to evangelism”? Why then, AFTER THE NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH, do we read these words, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely (Rev.22:17)”. And, if there is a physical utopia, after the new heavens and new earth, why do we see a need for the healing of the nations in Rev.22:2? Also, where do these bad boys come from, “…dogs, sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers,and idolaters,and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev.22:15)”? And why do we see people dying AFTER the new heavens and new earth, “…for the child shall DIE at an hundred years old…(Isaiah 65:17-20)? Remember that Rev.21-22 is all AFTER Satan is judged in Rev.20:10. He was judged (“fire”, not physical fire), dethroned and defeated (Rev.11:15), as Martin Luther says, but he was not annihilated. He was about to be cast out during the ministry of Jesus (Jn.12:31). He had his world turned upside DOWN (Acts 17:6). He that was on top of the world, was being put DOWN and under the feet of Jesus Christ (Romans 16:20,25,26, Rev.2:26,27, fulfilling Ps.2)! “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: RULE THOU IN THE MIDST OF THINE ENEMIES (Psalm 110:1,2). Note, that this is the most quoted passage from the old testament given to us in the n.t.. The rule of God is over and against, and in the midst of, His enemies (Rev.22:15). In a perfect utopia, there is nothing for Him to rule over. The enemy/enemies (Satan, Pharoah, Goliath, etc..) are used for Gods purpose. They are raised up to be put down, so as to bring glory to God. There was darkness in Genesis before the fall. There is darkness in Rev. 21 and 22 after the redemption. There will always be an antithesis to God’s light, ways, and truth (Isaiah 45:7).
I would also add, to Isaiah 9:7, that there is an inference in Isaiah 9:6, that would suggest that God is an eternal father, that he will continue to father children for eternity.
Finally, we are in the “age to come”, the everlasting age of the new covenant heavens and earth. We know this, according to Eph. 3:21, Unto Him be glory in the CHURCH by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, WORLD without end. Amen”. We are in, ‘The church age”, which has no end. There was an end to the o.c. age, but no mention is made of the end of the globe? Where are you gathering any information (verses), which speaks of the end of the globe? Also, I think we need to understand, that it is a pagan concept to think that Jesus died for the ground hogs, frogs, and rocks. There is no redemption for them through the blood of Christ. The things that are seen are temporal (2 Cor.4:18), and it is only those things in the unseen realm, which are eternal. This is the realm, the realm of the Spirit, where God seeks to bring us. He does not have that same plan for grasshoppers and jackrabbits!
Gary,
Thank you for the “full preterist” response. Obviously I believe FP is flawed for reasons I have outlined in other articles. For example, I believe it should raise serious suspicions that no creed in church history affirms the theology of FP. And FP interprets so much of the Bible differently that it is hard for me to believe that 2000 years of biblical scholars have misinterpreted the Bible to the extent of which it would take to miss FP theology. In fact, it may even be more disturbing that the biblical scholars of the first and second century did not interpret the Bible as FP theologians do. Another serious issue that I have with FP is the denial of the physical resurrection of believers, like the resurrection of Jesus.
And, concerning this particular article, I truly believe that FP has missed the glorious truth of “consummation” = the doctrine of “infinite sinful history” as taught by FP seems to miss the point of the whole Bible. I believe that FP misrepresents what the pre-fall, fall of Adam, and eternal state of man are all about.
Nevertheless, Gary, I do appreciate your comment. Thank you for outlining FP in a short and concise manner. But I look forward to the day when God’s glory shall fill the earth, not share it with sin.
Hi Jason…You said, “it is hard for me to believe that 2000 years of biblical scholars have misinterpreted the Bible to the extent of which it would take to miss FP theology.”
The reality is that you can find all of the key components of FP all throughout 2000 years of Church history. Most people are just ignorant to the fact that they are there. It’s a lot to sift through.
They didn’t miss it Jason…Here’s the proof you’re looking for.
Eusebius Pamphilius (260 – 340) Bishop of Cesarea, in Palestine (On Matthew 24:21)
“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.” “And all this prophecy of what would result from their insolence against the Christ has been clearly proved to have taken place after their plot against our Saviour. For it was not before it, but afterwards from that day to this that God turned their feasts into mourning, despoiled them of their famous mother-city, and destroyed the holy Temple therein when Titus and Vespasian were Emperors of Rome, so that they could no longer go up to keep their feasts and sacred meetings. I need not say that a famine of hearing theWord of the Lord has overtaken them all, in return for their rejection of the Word of God; since with one voice they refused Him, so He refuses them.”
“All authorities concur in the declaration that “when all these things should have been done” “The End” should come : that “the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets” : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem–all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realised on earth ; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God’s holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days–in obedience, faith and hope.’ ”
On the Theophania: or Divine manifestation of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ By Eusebius (of Caesarea, Bishop of Caesarea), by Samuel Lee
Source = http://reurl.it/1l
Thanks for your comment, Michael. I am aware that there are such quotes in church history of this and many various theological beliefs. But when speaking of 2000 years of biblical scholars, I am specifically speaking of the scholarship that has been affirmed as orthodox or the generally approved interpretation of the Bible. Do you not agree that the majority of Christians have not affirmed the belief that there will be no consummation of Redemption? Do you not agree that the majority of Christians believe that Christ will return at the end of time in his resurrected, glorified human body and resurrect his elect unto eternal glory? Do you not agree that there are no church creeds that affirm the beliefs of full preterism that are outlined in my article?
That is what I was referring to in my article. But I appreciate the quote from Eusebius Pamphilius. But I must say that I am not convinced that he believed the same thing that I read FP’s writing these days. For example, Eusebius refers to a consummation when he writes: “from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days–in obedience, faith and hope”
What does Eusebius mean by “end of time” other than a day of consummation when all of the elect have been (in his words) gathered into the bosom of the Church? You see, I think it is easy to say that Eusebius was accurate in his preteristic interpretations of Matthew 24 but I’m not sure that you can take his writings as far as the FP have taken their interpretations.
Myself being what you might call a partial-preterist I find no problem in what Eusebius was saying – IN THE CONTEXT of what he was saying. If you send me a quote of Eusebius saying something else I would be glad to take a look at it. But with this particular quote I’m not convinced on FP doctrine.
Again, Thanks!
I could provide many more examples like this…Including at least one orthodox creed that states the same.
Whether they understood what they were affirming or not…You can’t deny that people like Eusebius who mind you is one of if not the most revered early Church father/historian from the earliest centuries of Church history concluded that the New Heavens and Earth were a reality connected to the abolition of the temple cult that crucified their Messiah.
Yes, Eusebius was commenting on Matthew 24. However he connected Matthew 24 with the coming of the New Heavens and Earth. Something most if not all Partial-Preterists would say is not the case.
And if I understand the Partial-Preterist views they would understand the New Heavens and Earth as an end of time, consummation passage.
Whether Eusebius was looking for another future consummation or not, he boldly confirms that the New Heavens and Earth were a past event and a present reality in his day.
Look at his statement again, “I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem–all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth ; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations.”
The Bible never once speaks of the “end of time.” However it does speak many times of the “time of the end,” which Eusebius affirms as past.
You’re more than welcome to argue that he is wrong if you want…But his affirmation is clear and concise. And I don’t know of anyone that doesn’t consider Eusebius affirmed as orthodox or generally approved regarding his interpretation of the Bible.
Once again…His affirmation is clear. The New Heavens and Earth came and were a present reality in his day. If you would like to demonstrate that he wasn’t speaking about the same New Heavens and Earth seen in Revelation 22, which I’m assuming you are speaking of as a future, you are more than welcome.
Please don’t just sweep this under the rug.
Michael, you said:
I am around a lot of partial-preterist and I don’t know any of them who believe what you said they believe. The partial-preterist that I know believe that the New Heaven and New Earth is “now” because we are in the New Covenant. The New Covenant is the new world order of the gloriously resurrected Christ. Nevertheless, partial-preterist recognize that there will be a consummation of Redemption and the “heavens and earth” in the material sense will be forever freed from the presence of sin and its curse.
In other words, partial-preterist that I associate with recognize that the Bible speaks about a curse upon Creation (heavens and earth) due to the sin of Adam and the Bible speaks of the Old Covenant being referred to as “heaven and earth.” These two truths are not mutually exclusive but both deal with different dimensions of the glories of Redemption.
So, again, Michael, thank you for your comments.
This is fun! There is differing views within the partial preterist community. One thing I did learn from MVC and I have futher developed is the concept of th “two age Jewish view of time” This present age and the age to come. 1.THis present age- Age of Moses, body of Moses, law, temple blood sacrificial system. 2. Age to come,- A golden age of God ,in which all Gods’ promises to Israel would be fully realized. Gods power would operate in a new and better way.They did not see unending ages and no parenthetical age –parenthesis or Christian or church age. I believe it is incorrect to say we are in the “Christian age” as you mentioned in the beginning of your article. The Jews recognized that during the transition between the two ages there would be a visitation by God (coming of the messiah) a great and terrible day of the Lord and the kingdom would be on earth. (the kingdom on earth is not heaven)Rabbis saw this transition to most likely be a 40 time period. They sited David and Solomon 40 yr reign, Moses 3 40 year periods and the wilderness wandering. I believe that most partial and full preterist agree that we are in the new covenant heaven and earth right now. The only place that we find the new heavens and new earth in the OT is in Isa 65-66. This new creation is nothing other than the gospel ordinances that are to endure forever. This is also expressed in Heb.12:26-28. Moreover, the language the bible uses to describe this NC creation (people)is the same language as the creation of the orginal tera firma in Genesis.(see Gary Demars article,”What does Peter mean by the passing away of Heaven and Earth:) This is also why I agree with Owens, Lightfoot and even Keith Matheison that Romans 8:18 is not a “both and” but strictly the new creation people of God that groaned for redemption. That is the only thing that was soon (mello) to take place during the transition period. We must study this language of “decreation and recreation” and see as Demar notes that it is the NC heaven and earth people not the tera firma.
One problem I see in the partial preterist view is there is now two judgments, two marriages and two 2nd coming’s. Full preterist do not agree across the board in infinite procreation. Some like to mention the unnumerable angels in Hebrews 12 (i Think). Also, I believe we need to test our understanding of what happens when we die: Is our hope in heaven or a restored earth? Do we get our new bodies immediately? (believe it or not I agree with Chuck Smith here–Immediately)
The creeds are good and serve a purpose, but they are not infalliable!! We need to get back to the analogy of faith (scripture)
Thank you,
Todd Williams
Todd,
Thank you for your response. Just one note of clarity: I believe that Christ brought covenantal judgment on Israel in 70AD as described in passages like Matthew 24, 2 Peter and Revelation, and I believe that in one final judgment where all of Redemption will be consummated and that final judgment will be at the one and only 2nd Coming of Christ when all of the elect have been saved.
Everyone,
I know there are lots of things we all must learn. As we read the Bible we are constantly learning. And I for one know that I don’t have everything perfectly figured out. There are some doctrinal issues that I have a position on but will not be too terribly surprised if I am wrong about it. But when it comes to soteriology and the issues of Redemption, I am greatly troubled in my spirit when I read FP doctrines that describe an eternity where sin abounds upon God’s creation and against God’s elect. This is truly what my post was about — and I don’t want to lose that point. There may be many points of agreement and disagreement among PP’s and FP’s (and futurists for that matter), but my issue in this post is the crucial issue of “consummation.” As much as I believe there was a “beginning” to the story of Redemption, I believe their will be a decisive “end.” I do not believe that the Bible teaches that sin will exists for all eternity upon God’s creation or in God’s people. I believe there is an elect that is numbered, that God knows them all. I believe one day they will have all been saved. I believe that when they are all saved, God will remove all the unsaved from the earth and them the curse. The only reason the earth is cursed right now is because of the presence of sinners. But that curse was not eternal but temporary and it will be removed when sinners are removed. I do believe in a sinless, non-cursed Creation at the beginning of the Bible and I believe Creation is predestined towards a removal of that curse. My hope is in heaven and heaven is heaven because God is there. One day God’s glory shall fill the earth and my heaven shall be here with Him for all eternity.
Well…Now I’m confused.
If partial preterists believe that the olivet discourse, 2 Peter 3 and Revelation are past events. And that Romans 8:18-23 is not about rocks and twigs(Owens, Lightfoot and even Keith Matheison).
What do they base their futurity on?
Just curious…Because this is where we used to differ.
Thanks
Michael,
My answer to your question is answered here: LINK
Jason, this post about “infinite procreation” is a healthy challenge to any view that holds to a infite procreation doctrine. It challenges me and I want to study this issue more. I apprciate the manner in how we all handled our selves. As we may have steped on each others eschatological toes, no on resorted to any name calling or through out the “H” (heritic) bomb.
Thank you Jason and I am proud to have you as my pastor.
Also check out this quote from Athanasius. He seems full preterist. Your thoughts?
St. Athanasius (295- 373) (On the Fulfillment of Prophecy)
“So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands, neither is prophet raised up nor vision revealed among them. And it is natural that it should be so, for when He that was signified had come, what need was there any longer of any to signify Him? And when the Truth had come, what further need was there of the shadow? On His account only they prophesied continually, until such time as Essential Righteousness has come, Who was made the Ransom for the sins of all. For the same reason Jerusalem stood until the same time, in order that there men might premeditate the types before the Truth was known. So, of course, once the Holy One of holies had come, both vision and prophecy were sealed. And the kingdom of Jerusalem ceased at the same time, because kings were to be anointed among them only until the Holy of holies had been anointed. Moses also prophesies that the kingdom of the Jews shall stand until His time, saying, “A ruler shall not fail from Judah nor a prince from his loins, until the things laid up for him shall come and the Expectation of the nations Himself.” And that is why the Savior Himself was always proclaiming “The law and the prophets prophesied until John.” So if there is still king or prophet or vision among the Jews, they do well to deny that Christ is come; but if there is neither king nor vision, and since that time all prophecy has been sealed and city and temple taken, how can they be so irreligious, how can they so flaunt the facts, as to deny Christ Who has brought it all about?.. What more is there for their Expected One to do when he comes? To call the heathen? But they are called already. To put an end to prophet and king and vision? But this too has already happened. To expose the Goddenyingness of idols? It is already exposed and condemned. Or to destroy death? It is already destroyed. What then has not come to pass that the Christ must do? What is there left out or unfulfilled that the Jews should disbelieve so light-heartedly? The plain fact is, as I say, that there is no longer any king or prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them; yet the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God, and the Gentiles, forsaking atheism, are now taking refuge with the God of Abraham through the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Surely, then, it must be plain even to the most shameless that the Christ has come, and that He has enlightened all men everywhere, and given them the true and divine teaching about His Father.” (Incarnation, Ch. VI )
“But if the Gentiles are honoring the same God that gave the law to Moses and made the promise to Abraham, and whose word the Jews dishonored, – why are the Jews ignorant, or rather why do they choose to ignore, that the Lord foretold by the Scriptures has shone forth upon the world, and appeared to it in bodily form, as the Scripture said. . . . What then has not come to pass, that the Christ must do? What is left unfulfilled, that the Jews should not disbelieve with impunity? For it, I say, which is just what we actually see, — there is no longer king nor prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them, but even the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God, and the gentiles, leaving their godlessness, are now taking refuge with the God of Abraham, through the Word, even our Lord Jesus Christ, then it must be plain, even to those who are exceedingly obstinate, that the Christ is come, and that He has illumined absolutely all with His light. … So one can fairly refute the Jews by these and by other arguments from the Divine Scriptures.”
Todd, thank you for the kind words. I do believe that graciousness is called for among brothers who are painstakingly studying the Scriptures with all earnestness for Christ and His glory.
As far as Athanasius quote, I find that quote to be quite consistent with my beliefs that Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the types and shadows and has nothing left to do in fulfilling the Old Covenant. This quote does not, however, deny that there will be a consummation of Redemption.
So I do affirm that this quote is consistent with historical preterism or what some may call “partial-preterism” because as a preterist and as a Covenant Theologian I do believe whole-heatedly that Jesus fulfilled every type and shadow of Israel and the Old Covenant and has nothing left to do in that work. Today he is the enthroned Mediator and Priest of the New Covenant, making intercession for the saints and ensuring their certain perseverance unto glory.