The following email was sent to me…
Jason, I have enjoyed reading your blog for some time, and want to thank you for the work that you put into it. I am a pastor myself, and was thinking back upon a situation at a church I previously served, and would like to throw it out to you and the readers of your blog for some input. While pastoring the independent church, I was repeatedly emailed by a member of the church, who continued to throw out what I would consider your standard “straw man” arguments against Calvinism, while he himself was advocating semi-Pelagianism, rather than classical Arminianism. I’ve included an example of one of his emails below (having removed the names, etc., since my intention certainly isn’t to run him personally through the mud). What I would like to pose to you and your readers is what your response (if any) would be to this gentleman if you were his pastor and received these emails. Initially, I tried to reply point by point to his, and lay out my argument, but eventually, I finally stopped doing that since it became clear that I don’t even think he was reading my responses.
I greatly appreciate the input of you and your readers.
Serving Christ, Patrick
Patrick asked me to post his email and the email that was sent to him by the person he mentioned. Here is the email of his “semi-pelagian adversary.”
Thank you for responding I was beginning to believe that you consider me one who is not worth responding too, because I have openly opposed Calvinism and the tenants on which it stands { TULIP }. I already know that you have dug in deep and believe what the reformers teach. I am sure that your library is full of the works of the men that you consider hold the key to understanding God’s word, and that you fully intend to defend them. My prayer and hope is that you don’t just follow them blindly but truly test them by the WORD. If they are truly faithful to God’s Word than their teaching should be without contradiction. By your own admission you agree that God’s word is without contradiction. If your only defense is the statement that you have spend many years in study and prayer, it is a shallow defense at best. If I say to you that I believe what I believe based on my years of study and prayer than I also give little defense for my doctrine.
Jude tells us to ” contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints”, and Paul reasoned with Jews and Gentiles when they believed things contrary to God’s word. In fact in sermon at Mars Hill Paul openly defended the only true God and in vs. 30 to chapter 17 of Acts he states, “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. Had to throw that in there because it speaks of God’s call for all to repent, and if He calls all to repent than that is His desire. God doesn’t contradict Himself, He does not say I have decreed that men will burn in hell because I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. He declares that all men should repent and turn to Him and believe on the one and only sacrifice for their sins Christ His Son. Anyway I believe God calls us all to defend the faith whether against unbelievers who suppress the truth in unrighteousness or those who teach things contrary to the Word. No matter how you interpret Romans 9 you cannot declare that it means something contrary to the Whole of Scripture. Paul in that chapter puts it all into its context in verses 30-33, he is speaking to those prideful Jews who claimed they were the chosen people. God specifically has used the Jews for His own reasons to reveal His plan to mankind because He wants all to repent and believe. If He had already decreed some to burn in hell and others to be saved for no reason other than random choice, than the whole of scripture is on dangerously shaky ground and there is no hope for anyone. How do you know that you are one of the elect? You may think that by your actions or works or thoughts that you can determine you are His elect, but if God randomly chooses those He will save without regard for what they do, you cannot be sure. Calvin believed infant baptism was proof and so did Augustine. That is a immature understanding of scriptures yet you say they are the best exegetes. How is it that God knows His elect? He knows you before you were born and he sees the choices that you make and knows every thought and intention of your heart. He strengthens the weak and humble and those who harden their hearts against the truth he gives over to their own desires, but not without being longsuffering toward them. God is love and we know we are His when we are perfected in love, not when we are perfected in knowledge or spiritual gifts. God does do all the work, 1. He sent His son to die for us and forgives our sins. 2. He draws us with His love and mercy. 3. He patiently waits for us with longsuffering not wanting any to perish. 4. He gives us His Holy Spirit to guide us.5. etc…. etc… The list is unending of what the father does on behalf of man. “How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation.” If one cannot be drawn to God by His love than all of His other attributes including His sovereignty will not draw a man either. What grounds is there for us to follow His command to ” love the Lord your God with all your heart” if you are not drawn by His love. ” It is not that we loved Him but that He first loved us.” The parable of the prodigal son is no fluke it is in harmony with scripture as a Whole. The parables of the seed and of the ground and all the parables that Jesus taught give us easy understanding to what we are up against and what we must do.
From beginning to end it is in harmony, Adam when he sinned against God and thereby died spiritually, felt the shame of his own sin and hide from God. Was he instantly regenerated as Calvinism supposes? We are told that we were dead in our trespasses until we believed upon the one and only Son of God. If being dead in sin can be compared to being a physically dead corpse than that same word “dead” in other passages would have to be interpreted likewise. How is it that the term ” dead to sin” used repeatedly in scriptures like (Romans;6,2,7,8,11) (Colossians 2;20 & 3;3) (Galatians 2;19,20) (2 Timothy 2;11) would not be compared to being a corpse. You and I both know 1 John 1;8 says ” If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” The contradictions continue with Calvinism, and given enough time I will speak of them all. Not only does his doctrine contradict scripture his life followed a pattern of hate and anger and vengeance, which would mean that he was not perfected in love as the scriptures tell us is the proof of the spirit dwelling in us.
Augustine’s philosophical understanding of God and how He is this being who Cannot and Will not be influenced by any other being, otherwise he cannot be God is a perversion of the scriptures built around the influences of his former pagan beliefs. A little leaven can leaven a whole lump of doe. Reading into the scriptures things that are not in the scripture is dangerous to say the least. Revelations 22; 18,19 could be applied to the whole of scripture since God’s Word is of equal significance.
If you are insulted by my desire to contend for the truth than so be it. But if you cannot prove by scripture, that the doctrines that you proclaim are the only ones that can be trusted, than you have no defense. {Isaiah 1;10-20}
I sent Patrick my advice, but he was wondering what some of you may advise. I would be interested too. My advice was the following:
As for Murrieta Valley Church, we have had a few over the years with the attitude like the one whom you pastored. We were patient with them, answered their questions, and made sure that they did not spread their attitude to anyone else. As soon as they did, AND THEY USUALLY DO, we asked them to leave the church or they would be publicly dealt with as one who stirs up strife. This usually ends the issue. Of course, we planted this church and have been here longer than anyone else — so that helps. If you are in a church that is filled with people with relationships that predate you by decades you may find this difficult to accomplish. What I would do in that case is be lovingly patient, build a solid eldership, and then let your team begin to weed out any such contention until the church has sufficient theological unity. At that point the church will usually filter out these kinds of people for you — and such is HEAVEN ON EARTH!
What would be your advice?
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Jason Robertson is a husband and a father and a pastor. He is dedicated to leading and equipping his the Church with God’s word and biblical theology for life ministry, using a combination of pastoral, church planting and evangelism experience. He holds a Master of Divinity from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. He is experienced in church planting, evangelism, missions, and the training of pastors and Bible teachers.
Jason has been preaching the gospel since 1985, serving the first ten years of ministry as a Southern Baptist itinerant evangelist out of Milldale Baptist Church in Zachary, LA which ordained him in 1993. He has preached in hundreds of churches in over 30 States and 4 countries. He planted churches in Siberia, Russia in the summers of 1993 and 1994. He founded Murrieta Valley Church in California, which he planted in cooperation with the SBC NAMB in 2001. He also teaches ministry students at California Baptist University.
You can hear his sermons and read his manuscripts on sermonaudio.com. Just follow the link to "sermons" at the top of this page.
I’ll second Jason’s response and add that some ground rules on the dialog should be set. His e-mail was very long, and I would not doubt that it is one he copied/pasted to you. Firmly suggest that communication must be “original” work of his and that the length of the discussion be kept civil.
The Bible does say that the elders are to be held in higher regard. 1 Timothy 5:17 is useful in this, since he claims to trust the scriptures. Be patient with him, but remain firm as well. Repeated disrespect toward the elders of the church is a disrespect to the Lord of the Church and is grounds for dismissal as well.
I have little patience with those that are disrespectful or have little regard for the office of pastor. This is a prime example of that in my opinion . If it hasn’t happened already it is only a matter of time before he begins to undermine your authority.
I think you mean “revelation” not “revelations.”
just a sniggling little detail
=-)
I have a quick question in regards to a related situation that I’ve found myself. I started to attend a church as a new believer, and gradually I’ve seen (after 5 years) the elders of the church (and new pastoral staff) want to make the services more ‘relevant’, ‘seeker friendly’, and “non-confrontational” in the teaching. Frankly, a lot of the ‘gospel’ being preached has become man-centered and humanistic. Additionally, many emergent resources are now starting to be employed. However, I have found myself growing in a much more traditional, reformed view. Should I seek to meet with the elders and pastor to discuss the direction that the church is going and how on many points it deviates from Scripture? Should I just leave gracefully and find a new congregation? I guess I know what I should do (the latter), but I wanted to see if anyone had an opinion on this situation that I’ve been agonizing over. Thank you for your time!
I struggled in a similar situation a few years ago. Ultimately, we met with the pastor. It sounded like he had been drinking the Rick Warren cool-aid.
We left very shortly after that conversation. I regret not leaving much sooner. It all seemed surreal, like it was my imagination or that I was going to wake up and everything was going to be better. However, it continued and progressively got worse.
This pastor came into a church that had been in existence for a few years and basically ran off many of the early (and original) members. Very sad.
Regarding your situation, I say run. Talk with the pastor/elders first. Perhaps God will use you to correct them. But should they stick to their guns, I think you would do well to leave quietly at that point. I say quietly as in not stirring up other members. You don’t want there to be even a hint of you being a cause of dissension.
1. It is pretty obvious from the email that this person believed he was defending the faith and that Patrick was teaching things contrary to the word.
2. It was written in an attacking/questioning style with a definite attitude of superiority.
3. His limited and poor use of Scripture to defend and promote his position along with his reasoning showed that his response is not really rational, but emotional.
My guess is that this person, who makes such a big deal out of love, lacks humility. People such as this are very very rarely open to true theological discussion. In their mind, they are already on the higher ground. If you can’t get them to agree that you can differ on this and still work together for the progress of the gospel, which you usually can’t, then you need to suggest that they find a church/pastor that agrees with them theologically. Also, I have typically found that those of us who hold to a Reformed soteriology are much more amenable to working together for the cause of the gospel with those who do not have that view of salvation, than vice versa.
I’ll second Stan as well. As a new believer, I took my family to the church where I grew up. There was a fairly new pastor there, and I asked him some questions. After a few weeks of discussion, he brought up the Purpose Driven Church, and I had (thankfully) heard of it through online sources and had heard the warnings.
I read up on PDL/PDC, I think on Challie’s site, and brought my concerns to the pastor. Thankfully, he is an honorable man and desires to serve the Lord to a greater degree than his desire to grow a crowd by any means necessary. He served as my pastor for several years and continues to diciple me.
Not every story like this will end on the same note. I imagine most will not. I found him in the early stages of this path, before any concrete decision had been made. He retained his humility, as did I, and God continues to bless our friendship.
After reading another thread it occurs to me that maybe you guys would’ve given the author a pass (or even a hearty slap on the back) if he had just stuck to some good old-fashioned Biblical sarcasm.
You know, you really sound like a bunch of whiny wimps (smile). The defensiveness is palpable… it’s like you’re gathering the wagons in a circle from whence to let the arrows fly.
To be honest, it seems the pastor doesn’t know how to answer the fellow and you guys didn’t help him with that at all. Hey, I thought you were scholars! Can’t you help him address the man’s concerns point for point? And to accuse the writer of copying/pasting his stuff… yikes… dangerous ground. It’s almost like he’s seen as an enemy to be defeated by any means possible instead of a brother.
You know, of course it could be me, but I just don’t read semi-Pelagianism into what he wrote either. Maybe it’s the easy way out… label and, therefore, dismiss?
And along those lines… how can we dismiss people as being disrespectful (repeatedly at that!) when they don’t agree us (elder/pastors), but when we don’t agree with them we say something like “perhaps God will use you to correct them (pastors/elder)”? Isn’t that a bit pot and kettle-ish? One man’s correction could be another man’s disrespect, and visa versa. Especially depending on which side of the circle one is on, yes?
Don’t you guys realize that most pastors get total passes? Nobody has the guts to question them about anything, or they’re almost immediately labeled troublemakers. Like what’s happening here. And who wants or needs that? Maybe only those who are a little ‘teched’ in the head. God help them because they’ll need it.
What congregations mostly ‘hear’ is, please, do yourself (and me) a favor and just sit and listen and pay your tithes and enjoy the sermon, thank you very much. Yes, I realize how tiring it might be to think one has to answer to every Tom, Dick or Harry who might have an issue with something you’ve said. But in my mind that comes with the territory. If we can’t defend the scriptural veracity of what we’re teaching, than maybe we should keep our mouths shut until we can?
But this in no way negates the fact that people should be polite and respectful, on either side of the desk/pulpit. But if all else fails, hey, why not try a little holy sarcasm?
Susan,
I don’t even know where to begin with your comments, but I’ll give it a shot.
In regards to your statement, “Can’t you help him address the man’s concerns point for point?” some people are receptive to that, but others are not, and only become more entrenched in their error and get more irrational in their defense of it, and this gentleman is of the latter persuasion.
As to your statement, “You know, of course it could be me, but I just don’t read semi-Pelagianism into what he wrote either.” Yes, it is just you. If you have any formal theological education, I suggest you promptly demand a refund, because you did not get your money’s worth. When you throw out man’s depravity, which this gentleman is doing, you end up with a man centered theology that Jacob Arminius and John Wesley would have even been horrified of.
As for your statement, “And along those lines… how can we dismiss people as being disrespectful (repeatedly at that!) when they don’t agree us (elder/pastors), but when we don’t agree with them we say something like “perhaps God will use you to correct them (pastors/elder)”? Isn’t that a bit pot and kettle-ish?” I don’t believe there is any other area of life where everyone’s opinion is held in the same regard. For example, certainly a student can disagree with a professor who is teaching the class, but at the end of the day, the professor is the one with the training, and the one teaching, and his opinion carries more weight. For reasons unknown to me, that is typically completely thrown out the window at church, and people seem to think that everyone’s opinion, no matter how undeducated and just downright wrong it is, is of the same value as the pastor’s.
“Don’t you guys realize that most pastors get total passes?” No, I don’t buy that for a second (see previous paragraph). Instead, pastors are faced with people who have the attitude of you and the gentleman who wrote this email, that no matter how much in error they are, their theology should be given as much credence as that of the pastor’s.