Take note of the following:
1. Joel Osteen admits to using the Bible as merely Christian tag-lines that can be attached to universal truths. On the other hand, John MacArthur believes that the Bible is the only truth and must therefore be front and center. I think it is very important to find out how important the Bible is to your pastor. What is his bibliology? Does he expound the Scriptures, or does he just tag Bible verses to his sermon of “practical principles” when it is convenient?
2. Joel says we have already reached the church audience so he doesn’t use Scriptures in his book, Your Best Life Now. It sounds like Joel believes the Bible is only useful for reaching the “church audience” but not for reaching anyone else. Yet, it sounds like John MacArthur believes that if anyone is going to know truth then they are going to have to get it from the Bible.
3. Larry King noted that Joel did not use many Scriptures throughout his book, and Joel explained that he was trying to reach the masses not the church audience so he put most of the Scriptures at the end of the book. As I noted in point #2 that reveals a lot about Joel’s unbiblical soteriology and bibliology. But it gets worse! Joel goes on to tell Larry that he uses the same tactic in his Sunday sermons; he doesn’t use any Scriptures until the very end.
So let me get this straight. Joel doesn’t use Scriptures in his book because the “church audience” in his opinion has already been reached. But even when preaching to his church audience he doesn’t use the Scriptures either. Hmmm. I must be honest: this type of “ear-tickling” rhetoric is disturbing. I believe Joel is a perfect example of the type of false teachers Paul’s warned us about in his second letter to Timothy.
4. John MacArthur: crystal clear Biblical convictions. God bless him.
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Jason Robertson is a husband and a father and a pastor. He is dedicated to leading and equipping his the Church with God’s word and biblical theology for life ministry, using a combination of pastoral, church planting and evangelism experience. He holds a Master of Divinity from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. He is experienced in church planting, evangelism, missions, and the training of pastors and Bible teachers.
Jason has been preaching the gospel since 1985, serving the first ten years of ministry as a Southern Baptist itinerant evangelist out of Milldale Baptist Church in Zachary, LA which ordained him in 1993. He has preached in hundreds of churches in over 30 States and 4 countries. He planted churches in Siberia, Russia in the summers of 1993 and 1994. He founded Murrieta Valley Church in California, which he planted in cooperation with the SBC NAMB in 2001. He also teaches ministry students at California Baptist University.
You can hear his sermons and read his manuscripts on sermonaudio.com. Just follow the link to "sermons" at the top of this page.
That doesen’t shock me. Those who don’t have a high view of God’s revelation(the Bible) think their own opinion supercedes God’s revelation. Proverbs 18:2 speaks of these types of fools. We all should be like Job was in Job 40-42.
Seems as though Joel has gone to school at IBLP and taken a few notes from Bill G. His 7 principles are very close to IBLB’s and yet he doesn’t simply twist and recontextualize the scriptures he tacks on – he almost doesn’t tack ‘em on at all!
joel uses scripture?!
What’s more important, God or the bible? simple question, its either one or the other.
Now I am a christian and I appreciate the bible for what I believe it is. However, we all know how God forbids adding or taking away from “his” book, and we also know that he will condemn those that do…
I have fait in God, but i dont have faith in man. I also take what people tell me with a grain of salt and know that people are very ignorant and will follow blindly without thinking things through. God gave us the ability to rationalize and think freely, so why not take a look at this…
The bible has been through many hands and books have been left out. How much of the bible has been altered by man? Ever though that God may be punishing us for that very reason? sure these ideas may be extreme, but sometimes i think about the craziest things.
So why put so much faith in the Bible? Why not put all faith in God and simply use the bible as a guide.
So why do i think the way i do? Well people with different views and interpretaions of the bible has caused more deaths and pain that any other book ever written. Why would a work inspired ny God cause so much hate and have contradictions? God is perfect, man is not which leaves me to believe that man has changed the bible by throwing entire books out of the bible. Look at the way the catholic church made mare magdeline into a whore! and please do not bring up, da vinci code or whatever it is, not only have i not seen but i know its a crock! even the director says he made it up, so im not getting any ideas from a movie!
So maybe we should put our trust in the bible. maybe we should put our trust where it belongs.
These are just some ideas. im not here to attack your views, im here to listen and learn. so feel free to tell me how im wrong. also these arent really my absolute beliefs… just a thought.
Brandon,
Thanks for your comments and questions. Since you asked… and seemed to sincerely want to learn let me see if I can shed a little light on the issue.
You ask: “What’s more important, God or the Bible? …it’s either one or the other.” Well, God is more important than the Bible, because without God we would not have a Bible.
You said: “I have faith in God, but I don’t have faith in man.” I agree and practice the same kind of faith. Our faith should be in the Christ alone.
You said: “The Bible has been through many hands and books have been left out. How much of the Bible has been altered by man? So why put so much faith in the Bible? Why not put all faith in God and simply use the Bible as a guide?”
Brandon, I understand your concerns. Your fears are common among those who desire to obey God with a pure heart. Is the Bible trustworthy? Is the Bible complete? But let me ask you a few questions:
What is faith? Faith is a gift given to us by God to trust Him, to trust His will, and to obey His commands. Our faith in God obligates us to trust the Bible completely. Why? Because either God is trustworthy in preserving His Word or He is not. As you say, it’s either one or the other. God’s chosen way for us to know Him and His gospel is through His revealed Word. If God has not been successful in preserving it in its pure form then God should not be trusted with our souls. If God cannot secure His Word then there is no proof that He can secure our salvation.
Thus my faith in God is based on the absolute reliability of His Word. You can say that I take Him at His Word!
Now, Brandon, as far as men trying to leave books out, alter the meaning of Scripture, or abusing God’s Word that has been a constant battle. That is precisely what Dr. MacArthur is addressing to Larry King. But, Brandon, just because evil men have mishandled God’s Word, God still expects you and I to be faithful to it. That shall require of us much study to know the difference between truth and error, it shall require of us humility, and it shall require constant repentance. But never lose faith in the power, authority, integrity, veracity, and inspiration of the Bible. God’s has attached His character to His word. Trust Him… by trusting His Word. That is the only way to know Him savingly, according to His own wise design.
thanks for the reply and i understand what you are saying, thats what i want to believe… im not saying that the bible that was first presented was inacurate. in fact it was truly inspired by god, that is why i think the bible can still help us.
two of the questions you didnt answer was about the books that didnt make it and whether or not we can know for sure that the bible has not been tampered with. if that is the case then we cannot truly view it as the complete word of god.
im not even saying that if that is true then the bible is junk, its not. but incomplete maybe. what about the book of thomas, mary, etc… now i know that the book of judith(i think thats the one) was probably a book from a different sec and should not be considered.
im not here to try and disprove or prove anything. i guess what im trying to say is that my faith is in god. and im concerned about putting faith on what the bible says word for word due the possibility that many words are missing and God is firmly against that. i still read the bible. but like i said, if anything has been changed or left out.. doesnt that change the way we view it? i know it takes faith to believe in God. That however comes easy to me. But when looking at the bible and seeing all the possibilities its scary to know what men of power could have done without anyones knowlegde.
just look at how everyone celebrates thanksgiving. its portrayed as a day of thanks, religious freedom and so on. why did the indians have to die for their freedom? was their murdering of a entire nation of peaceful people in the name of god? columbus isnt even the guy that discovered america! after the indians found it, leif errickson landed first. now i know that has nothing to do with anything that we are talking about but it does show how obvious something can be, but when you are told something your whole life you generally just go along with it.
you could even say that the books that were thrown out doesnt matter, its still the work of god. makes sense but since God made it clear about adding or taking away from the book i think it deserves serious thoughts from someone other than me. maybe even the church.
well now that i read your reply again i may have overlooked something. in reponse to you last paragraph…
i understand what you are saying, but how can we completely understand and study the full word of god if something is missing? you said it takes faith, true. but if god warned so strongly against changing his word, should we expect a backlash? shouldnt we look for the truth, instead of just believing that the books left are good enough to get by? i dont know man, so many question with very few answers.. i guess that is why God warns us to stay away from the questioning things. kind of like the wizard of oz, DONT look behind the curtain! but im not questioning god. im questioning man. just wanted to get that out. mainly i just want to know how others feel about these things.
thanks for your time
Brandon,
I would suggest that you discover whatever attitude Jesus had towards the Scriptures and mimic it. You will find that Jesus never belittled Scripture or set it aside. He believed every word of Scripture. He believed the Old Testament was spoken by God Himself, or written by the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, even though the pen was held by men: Matthew 19:4, 5; 22:31, 32, 43; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37. He believed Scripture was more powerful than His miracles: Luke 16:29, 31. He actually quoted it in overthrowing Satan! The O.T. Scriptures were the arbiter in every dispute: Matthew 4; Luke 16:29, 31. He quoted Scripture as the basis for his own teaching. His ethics were the same as what we find already written in Scripture: Matthew 7:12; 19:18, 19; 22:40; Mark 7:9, 13; 10:19; 12:24, 29–31; Luke 18:20. He warned against replacing it with something else, or adding or subtracting from it. The Jewish leaders in His day had added to it with their Oral Traditions: Matthew 5:17; 15:1–9; 22:29; (cf. 5:43, 44); Mark. 7:1–12. (Destroying faith in the Bible as God’s Word will open the door today to a ‘new’ Tradition.)
He will judge all men in the last day, as Messiah and King, on the basis of His infallible Word committed to writing by fallible men, guided by the infallible Holy Spirit: Matthew 25:31; John 5:22, 27; 12:48; Romans 2:16. He made provision for the New Testament by sending the Holy Spirit. He committed the task of all writing of the Word of God to fallible men—guided by the infallible Holy Spirit. The apostles’ words had the same authority as Christ’s: Matthew 10:14, 15; Luke 10:16; John 13:20; 14:22; 15:26, 27; 16:12–14. He not only was not jealous of the attention men paid to the Bible (denounced as ‘bibliolatry’ by some), He reviled them for their ignorance of it: Matthew 22:29; Mark 12:24. Yet Jesus did not worship Scripture. He honored it—even though written by men.
Furthermore, Jesus obeyed the Scriptures as the authoritative word of God. If some leaders’ view of inspiration were true, Jesus was subject to an errant, rather casually thrown-together ‘Word of Man.’ Jesus would have been subject, then, to the will of man, not the will of God. However, in all the details of His acts of redemption, Jesus was subject to Scripture as God’s Word. He obeyed it. It was His authority, the rule by which He lived. He came to do God’s will, not His own, and not man’s. Note how all of His life He did things because they were written—as if God had directly commanded. He fulfilled Old Testament prophecies about Himself. The passages are found all over the Old Testament. We cite here only a very few quoted in the New Testament: Matthew 11:10; 26:24, 53–56; Mark 9:12, 13; Luke 4:17–21; 18:31–33; 22:37; 24:44–47. He Himself is the Word of God. All the words from His lips were the Word of God. (John 3:34). If He had desired, He could have written a new set of rules and they would have been the Word of God. But, He did not. He followed without question the Bible already penned by men.
This is the sensible thing for every believer to do. Brandon, you should as a follower of Christ mimic this same attitude or else you do not represent Christ honestly. May all who read this adopt Jesus’ attitude and become subject both to Him as Living Word and to the Bible as the infallible, written Word of God.
thanks again… but i guess you dont fully understand what im asking or else your response would have been more in line with what i am saying, so ill stop wasting your time.
peace, love and chicken grease
i guess i should add that the change in which im speaking of didnt come before or during the time of jesus but after.
Brandon,
Here are a couple links that may help answer your questions:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/ntcanon.html
and
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/otcanon.html
It’s great to question things. When you find the answers your faith really grows.
Brandon,
Don’t stop too quickly in this conversation. You are frustrated and confused — so take that into consideration when I say to you that your confusion has caused you to overlook the very theology that would answer your frustrations.
What I wrote about Jesus is relevant for you today. That is the point that you seem to be missing. Jesus gave us commands knowing the future relevance of them. Had He believed that the Bible would become unreliable He would have never commanded us to trust it. Again, you claim to trust God, but you don’t trust God when He says trust the Bible. That is a dangerous inconsistency.
Besides, you need to consider this question: What do you trust about God? And how do you know that about Him? If you give any answer other than the Bible then your faith is not biblical. But if answer correctly that everything that you know about God has come from the Bible, then I ask you this: How do you know that what you know about God is true?
How important is the Bible to me? Essential. See, for example, 2 Peter 1 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
well lets go ahead and get a few things out of the way…
im not here for you to try and save me or help me build my faith. not to be rude in anyway but i am simply looking for your thoughts on a few questions.
1. why did some of the books not make the bible(new testament)
2. throughout history, after christ, if anything was altered or left out then doesnt that anger god and if so could that explain the hate and the blood that has shed due to the contents.
note: i believe it is possible to still use our bible to learn who jesus was and learn from him. the books that are left in the bible are still important!!! but some books were left out that told stories that may have not fit what the romans or whoevers agenda at that time. thus changing the bible and making it imcomplete.
now when i say that im NOT saying i dont have faith in the scripture that i read. but i read it with knowing that it may be incomplete and thus hard to fully understand and leaves room for different views.
these are just thoughts and instead of trying to build my faith id rather hear oppions on my questions and comments instead of going the directions you have been going
however i really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me and thank you for being concerned. but try to follow my lead when responding before you go a different direction… because when you said that jesus gives us commands and i should follow those… well yes. but jesus wasnt around when these things may have happened. if god would have never let man alter his book then why would he give a warning against those that did? when he gave us that warning it only showed that man could do it.
i know i may be hard to understand, when i type i go with whats in my head and rarely proof read.. sorry about that.
Don’t feed the trolls.
dont feed yourself, looks like youve had plenty.
The books that did not “make the bible (new testament)” were left out because they were clearly false in that they were not written by the people that they were claimed to be written by and that they taught doctrine contrary to that found in the books communicated by the apostles.