Why do so many Reformed prefer the hymns?
We have a great appreciation for the Biblical substance and reverant overtones of the style. We should remember that man’s fundamental problem is that he is by nature an idolator and is tempted to worship himself. But remember, there were eras in which hymns that were written had no substance. Thankfully, we are living in a generation were new Biblical and theologically rich hymns are being written by men like Bob Kauflin and others. — J. Ligon Duncan
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Jason Robertson is a husband and a father and a pastor. He is dedicated to leading and equipping his the Church with God’s word and biblical theology for life ministry, using a combination of pastoral, church planting and evangelism experience. He holds a Master of Divinity from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. He is experienced in church planting, evangelism, missions, and the training of pastors and Bible teachers.
Jason has been preaching the gospel since 1985, serving the first ten years of ministry as a Southern Baptist itinerant evangelist out of Milldale Baptist Church in Zachary, LA which ordained him in 1993. He has preached in hundreds of churches in over 30 States and 4 countries. He planted churches in Siberia, Russia in the summers of 1993 and 1994. He founded Murrieta Valley Church in California, which he planted in cooperation with the SBC NAMB in 2001. He also teaches ministry students at California Baptist University.
You can hear his sermons and read his manuscripts on sermonaudio.com. Just follow the link to "sermons" at the top of this page.
I tend to think that every form of worship we humans can come up with are rathe futile and limited compared to anything going on in heaven, such that it’s practically worthless for us to even try.
Yet, at the same time, we want to worship, even in our limitations. I don’t think our Father is any less touched than when my three-year-old attempts to express love and affection for me.
Hymns for lyrical content – yes, musically – not so much. I greatly appreciate those who combine solid lyrics with solid music. And I do mean solid rock music as well as country, blues, jazz, gospel, progressive, folk and yes even some classical. I see heaven as a very eclectic place!
Rock & Country Music aren’t solid, since they violate the standards God has set for music. They are a style of music that directly appeals to the flesh. Rock may (will) help you escape, but it’s defintely not a music of worship.
I checked out a new church last sunday. There were people playing with guitars and tom-toms on stage. The songs all had the same melody, and they mostly repeated the same words. The real bummer was that they didn’t have hymnals, so you had to read the words off of a projector, AND they didn’t show the music for them, so I couldn’t even sing along. I finally got frustrated with not be able to sing, that I just got up and left (pretty noticeable since I was the only one in a suit, doesn’t anyone realize that church is always a wedding to Christ). I think the modern church is raising musical illiterates, but that goes along with rock, since most rock songs use the same chords.
Another weird thing is how about a quarter of the congregation stood for the whole service, and the rest remained seated.
God has set no standards for music.
What are you talking about?
You can worship God using any tune or instrument or sound. Rock and Country included. Randy Travis is a Christian “country” music singer. And there are a plethera of Christian rock bands. And most of the time I wear flip-flops and shorts to church. God isn’t concerned with what we look like per se, but with where our heart is at. You shouldn’t make such bold claims and put them forth as gospel. That is what the Pharisees did…
OK Lance – you’re freaking me out here. What standards did God set for music? Last I checked Psalm 150 says:
Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD. (KJV)
That pretty much describes much of rock. One band that is great lyricly and musically is Third Day. Here are some lyrics from “Offerings I & II: A Worship Album” There is great power and majesty in the southern rock music (country AND rock all at one time – ooohhh nooooo!) on this album as well. You can hear some samples here to understand what I mean:
http://www.worshipmusic.com/8306107062.html
Rock is powerful majestic music. In scripture God speaks and it thunders. I find in many songs the thunder of God Almighty. It lifts my soul in praise.
The lyrics:
CREED
I believe in God the Father
Almighty Maker of Heaven and Maker of Earth
And in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, our Lord
He was conceived by the Holy Spirit
Born of the virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
He was crucified and dead and buried
And I believe what I believe is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me
It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man
I believe that He who suffered was crucified, buried, and dead
He descended into hell and on the third day, rose again
He ascended into Heaven where He sits at God’s mighty right hand
I believe that He’s returning
To judge the quick and the dead of the sons of men
And I believe what I believe is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me
It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man
I believe it, I believe it
I believe it
I believe it, I believe it
I believe in God the Father
Almighty Maker of Heaven and Maker of Earth
And in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, our Lord
I believe in the Holy Spirit
One Holy Church
The communion of Saints
The forgiveness of sin
I believe in the resurrection
I believe in a life that never ends
And I believe what I believe is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me
I did not make it, no it is making me
I said I did not make it, no it is making me
It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man
I believe it, I believe
OFFERING
Magnificent Holy Father
I stand in awe of all I see
Of all the things You have created
But still You choose to think of me
Who am I that You should suffer
Your very life to set me free
The only thing that I can give You
Is the life You gave to me
This is my offering, dear Lord
This is my offering to You, God
And I will give You my life
For it’s all I have to give
Because You gave Your life for me
I stand before You at this altar
So many have given You more
I may not have much I can offer
Yet what I have is truly Yours
This is my offering
SHOW ME YOUR GLORY
I caught a glimpse of Your splendor
In the corner of my eye
The most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen
And it was like a flash of lightning
Reflected off the sky
And I know I’ll never be the same
Show me Your glory
Send down Your presence
I want to see Your face
Show me Your glory
Majesty shines about You
I can’t go on without You, Lord
When I climb down the mountain
And get back to my life
I won’t settle for ordinary things
I’m gonna follow You forever
And for all of my days
I won’t rest ’til I see You again
Show me Your glory
Show me Your glory
I can’t live without You
GOD OF WONDERS
Lord of all creation
Of water, earth and sky
The heavens are Your tabernacle
Glory to the Lord on high
God of wonders
Beyond our galaxy
You are holy, holy
The universe declares Your majesty
You are holy, holy
Lord of Heaven and Earth
Lord of Heaven and Earth
Early in the morning
I will celebrate the light
And as I stumble in the darkness
I will call Your name by night
Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth
Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth
Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth
God of wonders
Beyond our galaxy
You are holy, holy
Precious Lord, reveal Your heart to me
Father, holy, holy
The universe declares Your majesty
You are holy, yes You are
Lord You are
Jesus is holy
Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth…
THE EVERLASTING
Ruler of the universe
Higher than the kings of earth
Long before the world began
Everything was in Your hands
Your glory will forever stand
For you are the Lord
And You are God above
Your love goes on and on
You are the everlasting Father
[You are the everlasting]
You are the everlasting light, oh yeah
Every knee shall bow [every knee shall bow]
You are the everlasting life
Through the raging of the seas
The hills proclaim Your majesty
All these things created for
The glorifying of the Lord
We praise Your name forevermore
For You are the Lord
And You are God above
Your love goes on and on
You are the everlasting Father
[You are the everlasting]
You are the everlasting light, oh yeah
Every knee shall bow [every knee shall bow]
Lord of mercy [we adore You now]
You are the everlasting life
My heard cries out
My spirit shouts
I’ll praise Your name forevermore
KING OF GLORY
Who is this King of Glory that persues me with his love
And haunts me with each hearing of His softly spoken words
My conscience, a reminder of forgiveness that I need
Who is this King of Glory who offers it to me
Who is this King of angels, O blessed Prince of Peace
Revealing things of Heaven and all its mysteries
My spirit¹s ever longing for His grace in which to stand
Who’s this King of glory, Son of God and son of man
His name is Jesus, precious Jesus
The Lord Almighty, the King of my heart
The King of glory
Who is this King of Glory with strength and majesty
And wisdom beyond measure, the graceous King of kings
the Lord of Earth and Heaven, the Creator of all things
Who is this King of Glory, He’s everything to me
The Lord of Earth and Heaven, the Creator of all things
He is the King of glory, He’s everything to me
THESE THOUSAND HILLS
These thousand hills roll ever on
In footprints of a Mighty God
They bring me to my knees in praise
Amazing love, amazing grace
Was on a hill my Savior died
A broken heart, a bleeding side
Hill of the skull, Mount Calvary
The blood He shed, He shed for me
When heaven’s hills at last I roam
Forever settle in my home
I’ll join the saints around Your throne
Your kingdom, Lord, rolls ever on
These thousand hills roll ever on
Ripples of a coming storm
The morning star precedes the dawn
These thousand hills roll ever on
YOUR LOVE O LORD
Your love, oh Lord
Reaches to the heavens
Your faithfulness stretches to the sky
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains
Your justice flows like the ocean’s tide
I will lift my voice
To worship You, my King
I will find my strength
In the shadow of your wings
MY HOPE IS YOU
To you, O Lord, I lift my soul
In you, O God, I place my trust
Do not let me be put to shame
Nor let my enemies triumph over me
My hope is you
Show me your ways
Guide me in Truth
In all my days
My hope is you
I am, O Lord, filled with your love
You are, O God, my salvation
Guard my life and rescue me
My broken spirit shouts
My mended heart cries out…
YOU’RE EVERYWHERE
Like the rain that falls to the earth below
Watering the seed to grow
So it is with Your precious word, oh Lord
It won’t return until i know that
You’re everywhere
You’re everywhere
Like the wind that blows no one realoly knows
From where it comes or where it goes
So it is with Your Holy Spirit Lord
Falling known on us to show that
Your’re everywhere
Like the rain that’s falling
Your’re everywhere
Like the wind that’s blowing
Your’re everywhere
Like the sun that’s on my face
I feel the warmth in Your embrace
Your are everywhere
My Lord, now I truly know
That I could never go from Your presence
My God, You are everywhere
From the lowest depths to the heavens
Your’re always there
ALL THE HEAVENS
As Your children gather in peace
All the angels sing in Heaven
In Your temple all that I seek
Is to glimpse Your holy presence
All the heavens cannot hold You, Lord
How much less to dwell in me?
I can only make my one desire
Holding on to Thee
All the angels exalt You on high
What a kingdom to depart!
But You left Your throne in the sky
Just to live inside my heart
I will always make my one desire
Holding on to Thee
Yes, I know – long post but good lyrics and great rock-n-roll just plain envelop me in His presence. You may not enjoy rock and so it does not move you in the same way – but I have to say that is a matter of taste, not God’s command.
And Lance, when you get your references together that define God’s standards for music like Brian and Mr. “Dad” requested, please refrain from linking or pasting the C. H. Spurgeon piece entitled, “Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats” since that’s not scripture. I think we might have all read it. If anyone hasn’t, you can quickly do a Google Search and get caught up.
Actually I’m a reformed Metalhead. Rock isn’t majestic, it’s hypnotic and sensual.
There are well over 500 verses about music in the Bible, there’s plenty of reference.
God obviously cares about what we wear because he wrote so much about it and laid down many standards. In fact, the Bible gives us guidance for ALL aspects of life. If you’re excluding ANY areas as being outside his domain, then you are rejecting his Sovereignty.
I’ve never understood why people wouldn’t want to live all areas under God’s rule. I was quite excited when I became a Christian to conform my life to his word, and am happily pursuing it daily (and yes, I’ve still a long, long way to go).
One of the important points of why music is not neutral, like no art is neutral, is that is is COMMUNICATION. The Bible says you can have bad, evil and corrupt communication. It’s our duty to study the scriptures so we can discern the good from the bad.
Hi Lance,
So could you list those 500 verses for us? Just the references would suffice. And which ones speak specifically to rock and country being bad, evil and corrupt?
Thanks!
Tom
“In the Old Testament, God commanded Jewish worshippers that musical instruments were to be used, and when and where – God was specific (see II Chron. 29:25-28). Likewise, God has commanded, in the New Testament, the kind of music He wishes in modern Christian worship, and that is singing. Col. 3:16 reads, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with gladness in your hearts to the Lord.” Similarly, Ephesians 5:19 instructs, “speaking to yourselves -in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord . . .” Other specific instruction, or examples, are recorded in Acts 16:25, Romans 15:9, Heb. 2:12, I Cor. 14:15, and James 5:13. Nowhere has God condemned the use of mechanical instruments of music in Christian worship, but nowhere has He commanded their use. When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded.”
This is a quote from a site I read (I’ll get back to you on what site, I lost it). As far as wearing flip-flops and shorts to church, thats a whole other issue on respect or lack of respect.
So Jim do you hold to that position?
Pastorjim quoted, “When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded.”
I’m happy to be proven wrong, so feel free to do so. But I don’t find scriptural support for that view, and stated as it is above presents a flaw in logic. I do hold to the Reformed understanding of the doctrine of soteriology but I do not hold to the Reformed understanding of regulative worship, mainly because there is a lack of biblical evidence for such a view. I understand that many Reformed folks disagree with me and I have no problem with these differing views.
Flip flops thing= non-issue, nothing to do with respect. Are you serious? What do you think Jesus wore to “church”? SANDALS, SANDALS, SANDALS!
Where do you think the tradition of wearing nice clothes to church came from? Not the bible. No one had nice stuff to wear to church way back when..it’s a construct of the great awakening. Poor people didn’t have nice stuff to wear to church. God is not concerned with shoes or flip flops. Jesus and all of his disciples had dirty feet…Does the bible say anywhere that if you wear flip flops to church you are disrespectful….NO! So I guess Jesus had a lack of respect? And Paul, Peter, etc.? God doesn’t care. Using your own logic, if God doesn’t command wearing nice shoes to church, it is excluded. And nowhere does he command it, anywhere. Would you call a homeles man who comes to church with shabby clohes disrespectful and throw him out?
Also, the comment “Nowhere has God condemned the use of mechanical instruments of music in Christian worship, but nowhere has He commanded their use. When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded.” is very fallacious. Just because something isn’t mentioned or commanded by God, doesn’t mean that it should be excluded. That’s a non-sequitir.
It’s not non-sequitir. That’s actually the “regulative principal” and it has been held by great men for thousands of years. It is under this same belief that Calvin and Spurgeon didn’t allow instruments in their services.
“No one had nice stuff to wear to church way back when..”
Actually, they did, it was just different nice stuff than we’d wear today.
As far as the 500 verses, when I get a few hundred hours free I’ll take care of that. Actually there’s used to be a book out listing them all from Majesty Music, though I don’t see it listed there anymore, probably have to email them.
In the old days (the days of wine and noses), I used to hitchike 350 miles at 20 below zero to get to rock concerts, and dj’ed at the college radio station. It was what I fought against most when I became a Christian (that and “God doesn’t care about what I wear”), but I never stopped doing the research to determine what was the will of God. I just bought another book recently on the topic (can’t remember the name) that I hope to get to soon, to learn more.
It’s always our duty to take dominion over all areas of life and culture to the Glory of God.
OK then Lance, from all your research please list the pertinent verses which spell out God’s music standards which rock and country violate. We have yet to see your scriptural support.
Thanks again,
Tom
“…When God specifies His wishes, things not commanded are automatically excluded.”
I do NOT agree with this part of the quote. I wanted to include it so someone wouldn’t say I excluded it. I should have made it clear in the original comment. I believe though, it is safer to do as God instructed, instead of HOPING what we are doing is OK for Him. I hold nothing against people who use musical instruments in church, I am just more comfortable without them. I also like the sound of a capella music better.
“Poor people didn’t have nice stuff to wear to church.”
I didn’t grow up rich, nor am I rich now…but Mom and Dad made sure I was wearing my “Sunday’s Best” every time I stepped or was carried into church. As far as talking about Jesus, Paul, James…that is pretty much a moot point. I think we can all pretty much logically agree with that.
“Would you call a homeles man who comes to church with shabby clohes disrespectful and throw him out?”
Are you homeless, Brianstein??? Does the homeless man have a choice? Do you? When you go to a job interview, do you wear flip-flops and shorts? Maybe if you work at a surf shop, I guess. Do you think God is not owed the same respect? If you go over to someone importants house, do you wear flip-flops and shorts? I don’t think it gets any more important than God’s House! I’m sure He appreciates the fact that you can’t take a couple extra minutes out of your life to make yourself presentable for Him. Do you shower or bath before you go to church? Why? Do you comb your hair? Do you just wear a hat? Why?
I’m sorry I’m making a big deal out of the “flip-flops and shorts” thing, but if someone can’t see how it is disrespectful, it is mind-blowing to me! To me, it says a lot about someone’s character.
PASTOR JIM YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS
Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (Rom 14:4 ESV)
“I do NOT agree with this part of the quote…”
= Good. Point proven
“As far as talking about Jesus, Paul, James…that is pretty much a moot point. I think we can all pretty much logically agree with that.”
= So the question still stands. Was Jesus disrespectful for wearing sandals?
“When you go to a job interview, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?”
= This is a red herring.
“…Do you think God is not owed the same respect?”
=Again, where in scripture does it say that you are disrespecting God by wearing flip flops? Oh yeah….NOWHERE.
“If you go over to someone importants house, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?”
= Actually, yes. Is there something wrong with that? I am a So-Cal boy born and raised. Do you wear mucklocks? You have no point here.
“I’m sure He appreciates the fact that you can’t take a couple extra minutes out of your life to make yourself presentable for Him…”
= Don’t be so asinine. Tell me again, please, WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THAT WEARING SANDALS IS BAD? God is concerned with our hearts, not our appearance. Who the heck are you to say I am not presentable? You have never seen me. And I think flip flops are fine. So do many millions of Christians and you know who else does? JESUS DOES. Don’t take something that is a personal conviction for you and force it on everyone as if it is an imperative in scripture. And again, Jesus wore sandals!
“Do you shower or bath before you go to church?”
= Sometimes, most of the time. Why? Did Jesus shower when he went to temple? NOPE.
“Do you comb your hair?”
= Did Jesus? What are you; Marsha Brady? I can’t see Jesus ever combing his hair.
“Do you just wear a hat? Why?”
= Sometimes I wear a hat. Why? What do you care. Does God care? Jews wear hats. Jesus probably wore a hat. Whats your point? Do you work for, “What not to Wear”?
“I’m sorry I’m making a big deal out of the “flip-flops and shorts” thing,…”
= We all are…
“…but if someone can’t see how it is disrespectful, it is mind-blowing to me!”
=It’s mind blowing to me how you cite no scripture to support what you think! It may be disrespectful to you but not everyone else. You can wear a suit, I don’t care. I’ll wear sandals like Jesus did. He doesn’t care. THERE ISN”T ONE PLACE IN SCRIPTURE THAT TELLS US (MEN) HOW TO DRESS (except some verses in the gospels that say (in a parabe specific to that parable) to “dress properly” in which your definition of properly and mine are different…and…what about this, I forgot: “And the angel said to him, “Dress yourself and put on your sandals.” And he did so. And he said to him, “Wrap your cloak around you and follow me.”(Act 12:8 ESV) Peter is disrespectful…and the angel told him to do it! (wink).
“…To me, it says a lot about someone’s character.”
= Meaning? I have no character if I wear sandals to church like Jesus wore? Who do you think you are? I can’t believe you are serious. Is this a joke? Where’s the camera? Am I on TV? Where’s the biblical support? “(Joh 7:24 ESV) Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
You need to stop playing fashion police and focus on Christ himself (who wore sandals).
This passage would serve you well:
“Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Mat 15:1-9 ESV)
If you want to wear a suit, fine, go for it, I don’t care. But don’t push that conviction of yours on everyone else:
Let’s see – who wears really nice Armani suits? Mob bosses do. Hit men do. Drug dealers do. Enron executives do. Benny Hinn does. I see now how nice suits honor God.
Elle Oh Elle Dad
I always wanted an Armani suit.
Brianstine,
Just because you’re under conviction doesn’t mean you need to accuse anybody of anything.
You certainly don’t need to make assumptions about Jesus, like he wore sandals all the time, didn’t shower before temple, and didn’t brush his hair. These may or may not be true, but you certainly have no scripture to back you up.
You’re actually lying if you say that God doesn’t care about appearance when there are HUNDREDS of verses talking about appearance. You may disagree on the meaning, but you’ll have to destroy most of your bible if you take all the verses about appearance out. Why don’t you do a search on modesty for starters.
These are not our convictions, they are God’s principles, just because you were raised in a culture of disrespect, and believe that the culture is more important than the Bible, doesn’t make it so.
One day you’ll have to make a choice: God or The World.
dad,
Since you didn’t get the message, I’ll repeat plainly:
I don’t have the time.
Obviously you do have the time to make long posts, I’m lucky to read a few blogs and get a few short comments in. I hope oneday to have that kind of time in my life, and eventually I’ll put a webpage up with the fruits of my research, for now you’ll have to do the work yourself.
Having said that, I come to these blogs to see others research, so that I can learn more, and appreciate all the information put out (though I have no sympathy for those under conviction, who want to escape their conviction by denying the work of God instead of changing their hearts and behaviors.
LANCEY POOH
First you said, “Just because you’re under conviction…” Well, I am not under any conviction for how I dress. You made that up and lied. Let the Holy Spirit convict people, it’s his job, not yours kid.
Then you spouted: “These are not our convictions, they are God’s principles, just because you were raised in a culture of disrespect, and believe that the culture is more important than the Bible, doesn’t make it so. One day you’ll have to make a choice: God or The World.”
Who do you think you are? These are the most fallacious, slanderous statements I have seen here yet! I was raised in a culture of disrespect? Where would that be, Southern California? Funny thing is that I saw NOT ONE bible verse stated to back up your opinions. And your straw man tactics are so blatant, that I believe you used them on purpose to slander me.
Did I ever once say, anywhere, that culture is more important than the bible? NO WAY! And besides, this is also a categorical fallacy. The bible and culture go hand in hand. They are not an “either/or” choice. And without getting into a whole other topic, I must say that we have to minister the Word in our culture and contextualize the gospel to our culture as Paul did, (i.e.):
For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23 ESV)
You can’t just dismiss culture. That doesn’t even make sense. Read Acts chapter 17, Paul ministered first in the synagogue to the Jews using scripture, then at Mars Hill to the pagans where he quoted pagan poets, and used their cultural icons (i.e. altars, “religion”, many gods) to relate the gospel to them. Paul adapted to the culture wherever he went so the people could relate to the gospel, and so he could win more for Christ! And I AM NOT saying that he changed the message, meaning or the doctrine of the gospel; that is wrong and we should never do that. Paul just adapted his message (methodology) for different audiences. So I don’t know what you mean by your culture comment, they go hand in hand. But we’re way off topic here.
You should apologize and repent for your slander. And your little comment “…One day you’ll have to make a choice: God or The World.” is so off base, it’s ridiculous. In case you didn’t know, I am a Christian, I made that choice a long time ago pal. Jesus has some good words for you to meditate on, “”Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.” (Matthew 7:1-2 ESV)
Your spiritual immaturity really comes across in your previous post…
~Brian
p.s. I am wearing flip-flops right now.
Also, when I read this gem from an earlier post, “It was what I fought against most when I became a Christian (that and “God doesn’t care about what I wear”)…” I now realize the problem.
If the thing you concern/ed yourself with most as a Christian was/is what people wear, you miss the entire message of the bible. The point of being a Christian is to make disciples. Jesus didn’t say in the great commission to “Go out and tell people what to wear, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”
I think a priority change is in order for you, just based on what you have said.
~Brian
p.s. And again, is there any biblical support for your positions? I haven’t seen you quote the Word once…
Hi Lance,
Too busy to list just a few pertinent verses which clearly teach that rock and country violate God’s standards of music. But not too busy to play some games, LOTS of games.
http://truthandstrategy.blogspot.com/
Lots more time involved in gaming than in Bible study it would seem.
http://truthstudies.blogspot.com/
Honestly, Lance, I am glad that you have a desire to live a truly godly life. My prayer is that He will lead you into real freedom in Christ and the deep joy found in Him. I do not know who your current teachers/church and or mentors are – but I’m glad you are nosing around Fide-O. Be sure and check out some of the other blogs listed on the side bar as well. God bless!
Tom
“So the question still stands. Was Jesus disrespectful for wearing sandals?”
I don’t think I need to give you a history lesson on shoes, do I?
“When you go to a job interview, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?”
= This is a red herring.”
Why is this a red herring?
“=Again, where in scripture does it say that you are disrespecting God by wearing flip flops? Oh yeah….NOWHERE.”
Where in the Bible does it say that I can’t bring a cot into church and sleep during the services?
“If you go over to someone importants house, do you wear flip-flops and shorts?”
= Actually, yes. Is there something wrong with that? I am a So-Cal boy born and raised. Do you wear mucklocks? You have no point here.”
I know a lot of So-Cal boys and they have more respect than that. If Arnold Schwartzenegger invited you to his house, you would wear flip-flops and a t-shirt? When one of my “So-Cal” boys went and showed me pictures, I didn’t see any flip-flops and/or t-shirts. Maybe they are not “real” So-Cal boys, huh?
“Tell me again, please, WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THAT WEARING SANDALS IS BAD?”
I seem to remember you getting uptight about a quote I originally had on here about if it is not in the Bible then it is wrong. You seem to have to opposite view. If it is not in the Bible then it must be right. Show me in the Bible where I am not supposed to wear just a thong to church!!! SHOW ME!!! Oh, that’s right, its not in the Bible. So, I must able to just wear a thong to church, right??? Show me in the Bible where I am not supposed to take a portable tv with an earphone to church so I won’t miss the Chargers game!!! SHOW ME!!! Its not in the Bible, so I must be able to do it.
Just because something is not spelled out word for word in the Bible doesn’t mean we can act ignorant about it. Its a little thing called common sense.
“Do you shower or bath before you go to church?”
= Sometimes, most of the time. Why? Did Jesus shower when he went to temple? NOPE.”
Show me your Biblical proof.
“Do you comb your hair?”
= Did Jesus? What are you; Marsha Brady? I can’t see Jesus ever combing his hair.”
Again, you want my proof, where is yours?
“Do you just wear a hat? Why?”
= Sometimes I wear a hat. Why? What do you care. Does God care? Jews wear hats. Jesus probably wore a hat. Whats your point? Do you work for, “What not to Wear”?
So, you wear your hat for religous reasons, like Jews??? “Jesus probably wore a hat”? Again, show me your proof.
And again, about your other comments on people of the 1st century putting on their sandals…I’m not going to give you a history lesson on shoes!!! I think (hope) you are intelligent enough to figure this one out for yourself. This is one of the things I don’t like about discussing religion on line. People just want to be right. They don’t care about God, they just want to prove themselves right, no matter what. This is a perfect example of that. You want to argue with me that you can wear flip-flops to church because God wore sandals!?!? Duh, yes God wore sandals!!! What else was He to wear??? He also had nails driven through His body, does this give you proof that piercing is ok???
“Let’s see – who wears really nice Armani suits? Mob bosses do. Hit men do. Drug dealers do. Enron executives do. Benny Hinn does. I see now how nice suits honor God.”
Dad, were these suits worn in church? I think your missing the point here. The suits don’t honor God. What honors God is the fact that you choose something respectable out of your closet to wear to His house instead of grabbing a pair of shorts. The fact is that you have to make a conscious effort to grab those shorts instead of a nice pair of slacks to worship God.
Me too, Scott, but I don’t think I’ve ever been in a store that sells Armani!
So “Pastor” Jim, you worship God with your pants, I’ll worship God with my heart…
Also, God’s “house” is your heart, not a building. Do you shower in your suit?
dad,
Thanks for checking out my blogs, they don’t get much traffic, because I don’t have the time to post regular, and in the case of my gaming hobby, it’s suffered a lot because of lack of time. I don’t have the internet at home, so all my internet is done from work, so with 12 hours days and squeezing a Bachelor’s & Masters Degree in, it’s a little tight. I’m only fortunate that I work fast, or I wouldn’t get any blogging done at all.
brianstine,
“Judge righteous judgement”
“Avoid all appearance of evil”
I could point out all the placed you judged my and pastor jim, but we don’t need a big flamewar going on here. The bottom line is that you appear to be culturally liberal and I’m an extreme conservative. I hold the Bible as my absolute Truth standard on all areas of life, and seek every day to take what dominion I can over the culture.
You can have the final word as this will be my last comment on this post. God Bless.
Yeah, right on Pastor Jim! Agree 100%! I think it should be mandatory for all men to wear a super-premium suit in a digital camouflage pattern and they must also bring at least one loaded firearm with them to all church activities in order to be prepared for the inevitable attack of the islamofacist’.
Also, in order for men in the church to show proper respect for God and His servants, all male church members must spend at least one day per week detailing the vehicles of full-time church staff members. (This activity would take the place of feet washings from Bible times.)
Brian, NO ANSWERS FOR MY QUESTIONS??? God is physically present when we meet together to praise him, Brian. Is he physically present in your shower??? That’s right, it doesn’t say He is not in the Bible, so it must be true.
Lance, I respect how you bowed out of this slinging. I wish I had your control. This is a big reason the world is becoming what it is today. People just do not have respect anymore! Respect for themselves, respect for others, and especially no respect for God. Brian knows he is being disrespectful to God and the older generation in his church, but he doesn’t care. It is an inconvenience for him. He is so much more comfortable in shorts and flip-flops than he is in a pair of khakis and some shoes that hide his toes. Who is God to inconvenience Brian?
Church Dog,
Thanks for the support (yes, I know it was sarcasm). Big weekend for LSU.
“Pastor” Jim, I never read the bible where it says to wear khakis and closed toed shoes. Where was that again? And FYI, the “older” generation in my church building loves me, we get along great, they see no disrespect. We all get along, flip flops and suit wearing folks. So you lied and made that up, again. Nobody in my church sees me as being disrespectful. So how am I being disrespectful again? Because I wear flip flops? I’m done with this childish conversation. You need to read the Word. Because if wearing sandals is disrespectful, than millions of Christians worldwide are in big trouble! And yes I am way more comfortable in flip flops than khakis, and its fine. Don’t mkae things up that aren’t in scripture and push them on me.
Maybe you should form your arguements and opinions ,from scripture, not just “what you think”…I havent seen one piece of scriptural support from you. If you are a pastor, I feel bad for your congregation, do you mak ethem all wear suits?
Good luck with life.
~Brian
No Brian, I am not a pastor, nor is my name Jim. If you want scripture, try reading about the prodigal son. You keep telling me how Jesus wore sandals to church, first you must understand the status of the sandals during Jesus’ time. They were a sign of dignity and wealth. Slaves were not allowed to wear sandals. So, when you said, “No one had nice stuff to wear to church way back when..”, you should have researched what you were talking about. Sandals were the “Armani suits” back then. Clean feet were very important in those days (do you need scriptures?). People used to work barefoot so they would not wear out their sandals, so they could wear them to important events….like church.
“Maybe you should form your arguements and opinions ,from scripture, not just “what you think”…I havent seen one piece of scriptural support from you. If you are a pastor, I feel bad for your congregation, do you mak ethem all wear suits?”
Maybe you should quit trying to find loopholes in the Bible to make it fit into your life, instead of your life fitting into Jesus’ life. As far as scripture goes, I have told you, their is not a scripture that says, “do not wear shorts to church.” It is common sense. It is something you learn from reading the entire Bible, understanding it, and living according to it.
“Because if wearing sandals is disrespectful, than millions of Christians worldwide are in big trouble!”
You got that right, unfortunately.
So, Brian, do I think you are a bad guy? No! Do I think you hate God? No! Do I think you are misguided? Yes! Although you never answered any of my questions, I answered all of yours. What do you have to say about this? Do you not have answers for me, or do you realize that there is not a good answer for them? Are you so caught up with being “right” you can’t see the forest for the trees? There have to be some occasions you dress up for, right? Why do you dress up for these occasions? Why doesn’t God get atleast the same respect? I’m not trying to belittle you. I’m trying to help you see the error of your way. If you still do not get it, then so be it. I believe we were told to wipe the dust from our “sandals” and move on, right?
I see your POV now…you are just wrong. And this proves it:
“As far as scripture goes, I have told you, their is not a scripture that says, “do not wear shorts to church.” It is common sense. It is something you learn from reading the entire Bible, understanding it, and living according to it.”
So you admit, there are no verses that tell us about shorts or pants, or sandals or shoes. Therefore, everything else you say on the subject is your opinion, not a scriptural mandate. The arguement ends here. You need to realize your wrong and go buy some flip flops at Old Navy. I will not post anything further here on this sunject.
~Brian
Why is it that “we” will dress for success for a job interview? Wear nice clothes to a friends wedding or other important occassions? We seek to please friends, a potential boss etc.
But when it comes to GOD whatever “we” want to do, GOD has to accept for HE loves us and wants us to be happy.
Two late teens early 20′s kids came to our church. They were a mixture of goth and other things. Pale skin, spiked purple, pink hair, all black clothes and metal put in their body is more places than I can mention. They walked around to get a shock effect. They got it.
A elderly lady and I spoke with them. Invited them to services. They refused a few times, they kept coming and walked around for the reaction. But eventually they when into the sanctuary. They heard the Gospel preached and met GOD. I was not there. I was supply preaching for a few weeks.
When I returned, a very handsome young man and a very beautiful young lady came up to me and hugged me. I did not recongize them. Gone was makeup, metal, goth etc. Before me were two people who had a changed life. She was in a skirt and he in slacks. No suit. He did not own one.
They were not rich, nor did they have well made cloths. They wore the best they had to honor GOD. Were they wrong, NO. Was GOD honored by them….Yes.
The question is this…Do you honor GOD in what you do? It is not the cloths but the attitude behind the cloths. If flip flops and shorts are the best you have..wear them to honor GOD. Sometimes the best is old jeans with holes and a t-shirt. Growing up I watch dirt poor people put on their best for GOD. We had normal cloths and Sunday cloths.
Are we doing our best, or just what we want and demand that GOD accept it?
Brian, be careful in your arguements. You are using the arguement of silence to bloster your position.
Are there verses where Jesus specifically talked about sex with children, homosexuality etc? No. And there are “churches” and “christians” who hold there is nothing wrong with them since in the NT, Christ never said anything about those acts. Anyone can use the argument of silence for a specific scripture to prove a point.
Using said arugement is the last resort of one whose position is, to say, faulty.
We, as Christians, should be able to discuss scripture, ideas etc and be able to change for truth. We should all have teachable spirits. It is not about you being right or wrong. But about what is right and brings honor to GOD.
RE clothing in church. Why is the question always about what is impressive to a job interviewer or other VIP? OT worship was much more about family dinner.
Deu 14:22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year.
Deu 14:23 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.”
I remember coming home from Bible camp each year wondering why church couldn’t be as warm, deep, welcoming, rich, real and wonderful. No ties, coats, stiff shirts, painful shoes…..
Sorry but dressed to impress is bad doctrine.
And re the goth couple? What if they had been new to town, looking for a church home, were solidly reformed in their doctrine, deeply involved in ministry to the goth culture, had nothing but goth styles in their closets and were wearing the best they had of that? Acceptable in your church? Not acceptable? This is no longer a 1950′s homogenous american culture. This is much more of the great melting pot, and a very pluralistic place. Lot’s of different nationalities, cultural heritages and subcultures in much smaller locations. God’s new man is from every tribe, tongue and nation. Perhaps traditional African or indian dress would be more acceptable? Including the sandals? Scripture has much more to say about proper mercy, forbearance, and acceptance than it does about any given mode of clothing. Please!
Jam 2:1 “My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Jam 2:2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,
Jam 2:3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,”
Jam 2:4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Jam 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
Jam 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?
Jam 2:7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?
Jam 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.
Jam 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
Jam 2:11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.
Jam 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. MERCY triumphs over judgment.”
Lance said he was done posting, but he used a phrase that I found confusing. What do you suppose he meant whe he said, “Avoid all appearance of evil” in reply to Brian?
dad,
No one told the goth kids to change. They did to honor GOD.
They were not asked to leave, they were embraced. Read the post.
All of your scripture quoting is just for you to “feel” right in what you are doing. Possbily, in your heart, you have questions about your position?
If you are honoring GOD, why the long post telling us how we are wrong. We, the church, did not made the goth kids change. They had a change of heart and it showed outwardly.
We have another young man covered in facial tatoos, metal piercings. He comes to church, he asks questions. Have not seen a change in his heart/attitude toward GOD. Does the tatoos etc have to go? No. His clothing has changed. Not as grungy. All we have done is loved him. We have not sent him away. Nor the jew or muslim who were saved by GOD. Nor the drug dealer who was saved and changed. My church is made up of all types of sinners. We have a couple of former prostitutes who sing in the choir. So your pontification and sense of outrage falls flat. I have not judged. But your use of scripture was to try and backhand a judgement upon members of this board to include me.
We have a couple from Africa. The wife wears traditional clothing. No one judges them.
And please tell me you were jesting and your level of understanding OT worship is better than what you wrote about “family dinner”.
Dressing to impress? Who said that. I said dress to honor GOD. We creatures can not impress GOD. Abel offered the best he had to GOD. Cain offered what he wanted. The outward is a reflection of the inward. All I said was wear the best you had, if that is shorts and flip flops so be it.
After Hurricane Ivan in ’04, we had services in the sanctuary. No power, water damage everywhere. It was hot and humid. People were unwashed, dirty, in work clothes, boots, etc. We did not turn them away. They came the best they could. I saw people take towelettes out of the MRE’s to clean up best they could. Why? because the preacher said so? The doctrine of the church said so? No, they were doing their best to honor GOD.
All we do, should be to the glory and honor of GOD.
I have no “questions about my position” whatsoever. Your church is very much to be commended and exactly what I would hope would be the position of each and every congregation in America. Sadly it is not. I apologize for a rather harsh and hasty response on my part. I made assumtions I should not have. I expect it is a result of much contact with way too many churches and ministries which are filled with “dressed to impressness”.
I was not jesting however about worship being more about family dinner than trying to impress. God is our Father, we are His family. We are Jesus’ bride. We are His brother. In a family there is no need to “impress” we are fully accepted in the beloved. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. It really is not about wearing your “best clothes”. We are admonished not to let our adorning be merely external – but rather to let our inward being be glorifying to Him. Once we begin identifying certain styles of clothing (which is what was being done – “suits no sandals” – though not necessarily by you Mark) we cross a line scripture warns us not to cross. That is why I quoted from James.
God bless!
SDG
Tom
Tom,
“Once we begin identifying certain styles of clothing (which is what was being done – “suits no sandals” – though not necessarily by you Mark) we cross a line scripture warns us not to cross.”
You need to re-read, this was not done anywhere!
Sure it was. Sandals were just plain described as inapropriate attire for church. Not to mention shorts. St. Brianstein took much flak for that.