What does this poster say? And I am not talking about the text.
Go here to read about the debate.
Update: It seems that Ergun may have changed the background of this poster and maybe not!
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More Than Words
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About the Author
Jason Robertson is a husband and a father and a pastor. He is dedicated to leading and equipping his the Church with God’s word and biblical theology for life ministry, using a combination of pastoral, church planting and evangelism experience. He holds a Master of Divinity from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. He is experienced in church planting, evangelism, missions, and the training of pastors and Bible teachers.
Jason has been preaching the gospel since 1985, serving the first ten years of ministry as a Southern Baptist itinerant evangelist out of Milldale Baptist Church in Zachary, LA which ordained him in 1993. He has preached in hundreds of churches in over 30 States and 4 countries. He planted churches in Siberia, Russia in the summers of 1993 and 1994. He founded Murrieta Valley Church in California, which he planted in cooperation with the SBC NAMB in 2001. He also teaches ministry students at California Baptist University.
You can hear his sermons and read his manuscripts on sermonaudio.com. Just follow the link to "sermons" at the top of this page.
It says, “I’m a little box with a red X.”
But I bet what it means is that “the church has replaced Israel, and the OT prophecies are all cancelled, bring out you decoder-rings”?
Close?
It says that the two guys on the left are Baptist and the two guys on the right are Calvinist and nary the two shall meet.
Plus its kind of morbid with that dark back drop and the destroyed church. Also Ergun looks like he’s in a staring contest with the devil.
I am referring to the message of the picture. Scott alluded to it, but WHY did Ergun choose this picture for the poster? What message is being given before the debate even starts?
Yeah, I was wondering what the destroyed church thing is all about, too. Point made, Jason: the Caners appear to be rather stern (Emir may be attempting a smile there) but White and Ascol have pleasant smiles. Interesting juxtaposition.
It says “I’m the intellectual pit-bull of [I forget what]. You should be very impressed.”
Alternate translation:
“I never grew up. I think WWF is cool. I’m still threatening to beat kids up after school just like I did in 3rd grade.”
The two guys on the right are smiling and the guys on the left are not. The Calvinist must know something the others do not.
Graphically, when I zoomed back on the poster, I saw the overall impression (of the size of the photos) decrease in size from left to right. The graphic of ergun & emir is taller top to bottom than the the graphics of James and Thomas. Coincidence? I think not!
Oh, wait. I meant, WHY did Ergun choose the picture of the church? Not why did he choose the picture of himself — we know why he did that
Why when speaking of Baptist and Calvinism, why did Ergun choose a picture of a church that is destroyed? Why a picture of a church that looks like it is dead? I looks like it went through Katrina or a nuclear holocaust. Where did all the members of the church go? Why is the church vancant?
The picture of an empty church can backfire. I can think of several items before “Calvinism destroys churches.” How about:
1. Men of God that do not comport themselves accordingly destroy churches.
2. Slick marketing will fill church pews with empty believers.
3. Anti-Calvinism destroys churches.
4. The church is as vacuous about Calvinism as I (Emir Caner) am.
5. My behavior has driven many away: LBU students please come back!
Well, let’s be fair. If the individual images are in fact different sizes, I wouldn’t assume that’s purposeful. I can’t tell a difference on the couple of digital images I’ve seen, except for Dr. White’s picture maybe, which appears to be a run-of-the-mill professional studio portrait, as opposed to a high-dollar photographer’s head shot.
Gene, BINGO!
I thought I put a big grinning colon D
to transmit my weak attempt at humor…guess it didn’t work…
The communicates that 3/4ths of baptists prefer facial hair and very short hair (if any).
Brethren –
Go back to the original link – the background of the decimated church is now gone.
You’re all making somebody nervous.
David – I prefer your alternate translation.
Mike
Not only is the link gone, everyone’s head shot is the same size.
Sam, my mistake. I didn’t catch that smiley there. So the humor fell short not in the transmission but in the reception.
Jason,
I had the same suspicion, but seriously, I think that someone just really liked the light coming through the windows with the darkened foreground for effect. The papers and seating (or lack thereof) are barely noticable. It does make for a good conspiracy theory. We might want to be careful. I could see Ergun bringing up in the debate how trite calvinsits are: “they even see symbolism in promotional postors!”
It does become even more suspicious when the promotional is altered.
Travis,
I appreciate your caution. But my “theory” is not unfounded as you know. And I care none about what Ergun says about me. NONE. It is no doubt that Ergun did not pick that picture because of the lighting but because it portrays what he thinks Calvinism does to Baptist churches. Here are a few quotes from Ergun’s famous comments on the Founder’s blog to remind us of his view of this issue:
Five-point Calvinism is a VIRUS. It saps the evangelism of every church it infects.
Have any of you done ANYTHING accept kill your churches I would guess that, unlike William Carey, most guys who are hyper about Calvinism use it to justify your laziness.
Like Beza, this next generation will ruin what men such as Dr Ascol built.
I have never- and I mean NEVER- made my anti-5-pointer stance a secret. I make a point of it, and certainly my sermons on “Piper-Calvinists,” and “Wilted Tulips” are loud and clear.
I am premillenial and pretribulational, but not dispensational. I stand with Israel proudly- and do not “replace” them. I stand in the free church tradition, not a theocracy. And finally- I am neither Armenian nor Calvinist- I am BAPTIST. A radical reformer, in the Anabaptist heritage.
And one more from that same infamous exchange:
I absolutely believe that Hyper-Calvinism has killed every Baptist church it has infected. They chalk it up (or “Gottschalk it up”) to “growing deeper.” They are not deeper; they are lazy. — Caner
Notice Ergun believes that 5-point Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism are synonymous.
I’ve tried to forget those quotes, but yes, alas, one would perhaps conclude that the “bulldog of evangelicalism” could be capable of pulling such a stunt.
I don’t know if this has already been stated, but the picture which was altered (church image removed) has been restored to its original. I saw the altered pic this morning around 5:00 a.m. (9.22.06) and within 12 hours it was changed – again. Go figure.
Do you suppose maybe that’s just an actual shot of Thomas Road Baptist Church? Just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt…
The answer to that question is NO! That is not Thomas Road Baptist Church’s new building. Follow the link and take a look for yourself. The church in the picture is not under construction but is damaged. The picture is on the poster because Ergun believes that Calvinism kills churches. Don’t be naive, friends. Ergun will not pull any punches at this debate. For him it is not about truth, historical or theological. It is about Ergun’s ignorance of Calvinism and prejudice against Calvinists. He would that either all Baptist forsake Calvinism or all Calvinists forsake the Baptist. He has declared a jihad against Reformed theology and some of you need to just come to grips with that. Pray for James and Tom; may God give them wisdom. Ergun will be ruthless, arrogant, and untruthful. He will make broad-brush accusations and claims against Calvinism and personally ridicule Calvinists. And this poster is just a part of his gameplan. If you don’t believe me, then it is probably because you haven’t been around such Baptists who seriously hate Calvinism — consider yourself blessed, but get your head out of the sand. And I say that respectfully, knowing that many of you just want to error on the side of caution when it comes to claiming that our brother Ergun has such misguided intentions.
Jason, I was kidding. Sorry, I thought my comment was stupid enough so that would be obvious. I guess I need to work on my delivery.
You’re forgiven. And thanks for clarifying; you are now free from the doghouse.
Jason, seriously, I appreciate your passion regarding this issue.
This poster thing is crazy. Now its back in its original form. I can’t figure out what Ergun is thinking. (assuming its Ergun)
Does he think Calvinism destroys churches? Sure he does. So I think we got him running scared. This poster debocle and its changes shows me he can’t really figure out what to do. Stand firm as the “bulldog” and leave the pic or remove it as fair play.
The deal is the Caners do not consider this an itramural debate and Tom and James will be treated no better than any Muslim that the Caners decide to debate. I am sure James and Tom will do there best to leave with their integrity in tact, but the Caners will not play fair.
Also James and Tom are going into enemy territory. This is not a seminary it is a regular college campus and I don’t expect the crowd to sit with their hands folded, taking notes and trying to decide the issues. I fully expect them to taunt, cheer, jeer, and react however, Ergun and Emir direct them to act.
Jason,
Now that I’ve revisted LU’s website with the “new improved” view of the sanctuary (or whatever they did), I think I can even see busted out windows. The closeup reveals a lot more damage than I was able to see on your site or mine. I stand corrected. This could not possibly be by accident. It does make you wonder how rough things will get in the debate. Your “prophecy” reminds me of a scene at the beginning of the movie “Gettysburg” where a Union colonel gets the first look at the battlefield before the forces engadge. In the calm before the battle, he predicts bloodshed and devestation on both sides. Let’s hope that above all else this gathering produces illumination of souls and brings glory to God.
Scott,
If indeed many of those young Liberty college students (who most have never attended a theological debate) do end up jeering, taunting, and being uncouth, it will not bode well for Liberty University, Caners, and their anti-Calvinism.
When those mp3s and DVDs are seen and heard by thousands of believers, they will be the arbiter of truth and love on this debate.
But I am inclined to believe that once White and Ascol make their civil and Biblical case, things will get very quiet and attentive in that building.
“…once White and Ascol make their civil and Biblical case, things will get very quiet and attentive in that building.”
Well said CG – I think that most of us share that same expectation…
Jason,
The person who designed the poster has posted a response at the Founder’s blog. He at least agreed that the destruction was intentional , though he denies any influence from Dr. Caner
CG,
I hope, no I pray that you are correct. But I have my doubts. The level of knowledge concerning theology and the scriptures is not very encouraging in the church. The previous SBC seminary I attended the students watch NCAA games, Lord of the Rings and some show call Napoleon Dynamite. During Systematic I and II.
The well has been poisoned regarding who a “calvinist” is and what a “calvinist” believes. But for the sake of one, Drs. White and Ascol need to climb Mars Hill.
Will anyone besides Dr Caner have a live feed? I am sure I will have to look at a rather large picture of the man while watching the debate. I perfer to not be distracted. :^)
Mark
As a graduate of LU and p/t student in the seminary (I began in the pre-Caner era), I can attest that there are some who are anti-Calvin, but there remain a strong contingent of esteemed profs in both schools who would hold to the doctrines of grace. I would be highly shocked if the student body were to be disrespectful to either side. Hopefully I am proven correct. Are there plans to make the audio content available following the debate?
jb, I really do believe that the students will show respect. Not speaking specifically of LU, but college life in general, I know how things can ground swell and take a life of there own. If this debate has been percieved around campus as a debate between us and them, and the students show up with a competative spirit, then taking into consideration the culture, I could see some non academic behavior from the students.
I have heard Ergun enough now to see his style of debate and he has already revealed that he feels he is practically at war with a devil doctrine. I can see him cliche’ing the crowd into cheers and amens. That is all I was saying.